[TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(26 Oct 2024 05:27 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
James Catchpole
(26 Oct 2024 08:23 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
James Catchpole
(26 Oct 2024 08:38 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(26 Oct 2024 10:19 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Jim Vassilakos
(26 Oct 2024 09:10 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(26 Oct 2024 10:08 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Charles McKnight
(26 Oct 2024 14:58 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Timothy Collinson
(26 Oct 2024 10:16 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(26 Oct 2024 18:48 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(26 Oct 2024 19:52 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Rupert Boleyn
(27 Oct 2024 05:59 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(27 Oct 2024 10:24 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Rupert Boleyn
(27 Oct 2024 14:12 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(27 Oct 2024 16:02 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(27 Oct 2024 21:02 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(27 Oct 2024 21:31 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(27 Oct 2024 16:05 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(27 Oct 2024 16:21 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(27 Oct 2024 21:07 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(27 Oct 2024 21:33 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Charles McKnight
(27 Oct 2024 21:42 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(28 Oct 2024 06:37 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(28 Oct 2024 06:32 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 15:44 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I Jeff Zeitlin (27 Oct 2024 21:47 UTC)
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Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
David Johnson
(27 Oct 2024 23:51 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 02:17 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(28 Oct 2024 07:11 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
Charles McKnight
(28 Oct 2024 12:55 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
Richard Aiken
(28 Oct 2024 13:31 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
David Johnson
(28 Oct 2024 14:26 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 16:06 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Empire guarantees self-government, prohibits chattel slavery (was: Law in the 3I)
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 15:57 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
kaladorn@xxxxxx
(28 Oct 2024 07:06 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 15:54 UTC)
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Re: [TML] Law in the 3I
Phil Pugliese
(28 Oct 2024 15:38 UTC)
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On Sat, 26 Oct 2024 15:52:13 -0400, xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote: >We know that the Imperial does not accept chattel slavery. Would that over >human trafficking? (Even for helping people to change planets or whatever?) As the guy that wrote the text of the Warrant of Restoration, I can give you my thinking on this subject. The use of the word _chattel_ was very deliberate; TML discussions of slavery in the 3I prior to the release of T4 and the actual text of the Warrant thrashed out a whole series of conditions that might have been claimed to be 'slavery', but which disallowing might well make certain established aspects of the setting impossible - and yes, pretty much anything can be abused by a mind set on such abuse. My thinking on 'chattel' slavery was that a Person was being treated as property that could be freely bought or sold, with no rights, or no recourse to have enforced any rights nominally acknowledged, and no way even in theory to earn/force manumission. This more-or-less matched the 'slavery' that was familiar to most Americans based on the antebellum economy of the states that were on the losing side in the failed Rebellion of 1861. This 'definition' of chattel slavery for the 3I allowed the following: * Debt slavery/Peonage/Indenture: In theory, paying off the debt would force manumission; nominally, you weren't a slave, but an indentured servant/laborer/worker/etc. who could eventually 'buy out' your 'contract'. However, there was in practice nothing stopping a contract owner from setting the per diem and then charging things like employer-provided food, housing, clothing, et cetera, against the per diem, and doing so at such rates that there was no real way for an indenture to be paid off. This was common after the failure of the Rebellion of 1861 in the territories that had rebelled. * Enserfment: A serf isn't a slave; rather, the serf is bound to the land that is the salable property, and cannot be alienated from it. The land can be freely bought and sold, and the serf comes with it; the serf works the land and its product belongs to the landowner, but the serf is entitled to a certain amount for his/her own use. The serf cannot be abused, and cannot be _compelled_ to service other than working the land he is bound to, to the detriment of his own entitlement. Generally, there is an expectation that the lord will also protect his serfs from such things as raids by bandits or other lords, and will permit and fund such things as rebuilding or repairing serf homes after a severe storm, and will in such cases partially remit the burden of providing the full amount of the productivity to the lord - but with a similar reduction in the amount permitted to be retained by the serf. Other enforceable rights the serf may [or may not] have might be marriage to another serf of the same lord, appeal to the lord for justice in a conflict with another serf of the same lord, or to be permitted time to worship as the lord does. * "Company Towns": This starts out as 'normal' employment, except that there is no place to purchase things like clothing, food, etc., other than retail establishments owned and operated by the company that the customer works for. Prices could be set at a level that would make it difficult or impossible for the worker to save any money, and ultimately the worker would find himself in an effective peonage situation. All of the above would generally be considered abusive in the 3I, with the possible exception of enserfment, but would be legal under the Warrant except where an enfeoffed Imperial noble's writ specifies otherwise. The main constraint against abusive use of any of the above would be "Don't make the local noble Have To Take Notice". If the local noble Has To Take Notice, he may very well be annoyed enough to take punitive action just out of pique, and you'd suffer for it. And yes, if you paid him enough in advance, even the Anti-Slavery league shrilling to the Press might not be enought to force him to Take Notice. "Human [Sophont] Trafficking" is a very fuzzy term, and does not itself fall under the definition of chattel slavery - but the situation that the trafficked sophont may find himself in after being landed could very well be chattel slavery, just misrepresented to the trafficked sophont beforehand. ®Traveller is a registered trademark of Mongoose Publishing, 1977-2024. Use of the trademark in this notice and in the referenced materials is not intended to infringe or devalue the trademark. -- Jeff Zeitlin, Editor Freelance Traveller The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com http://www.freelancetraveller.com Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following enterprises for hosting services: onCloud/CyberWeb Enterprises (http://www.oncloud.io)