On 31/3/23 10:51, Jonathan Clark - jonathan at att.net (via tml list) wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Me:>> Senolytics aka anagathics? (James Blish, I think.)
>
> Alex Goodwin:
>> Not quite as I understand them - anagathics directly _prevent_ (some
>> fraction of) aging damage accumulating ahead of time, while senolytics
>> _repair_ (some fraction of) existing aging damage.  Any prevention from
>> senolytics is indirect.  That may be a distinction without a practical
>> difference.
>
> Fair enough. I think you're right - pre- vs post-care. Probably both
> are in use.

Yeah.  Frinstance, In the Naturallyverse (one of MTU), the Imperial
Marine Force _wants_ the booties to have a longer life, so it _issues_
them with one.  The regulars get around 2/3 of their aging stopped after
a few years (for something like 20% of the cost), while the
surreptitious ruffians (aka the commandos) get the full orchestra.

This came to a hilarious head with a player who was active-duty in the
Australian Army at the time managing to _completely miss_ a bootie field
marshal who had spent a lot of time in the commandos and thus didn't
look over 25.  I decided to play it more for laughs, so the marshal
pulled the PC up with "Ship Sergeant Whipsnade, in _my_ Marines we tend
to salute superiors while indoors."  The look on the player's face was
priceless, but the good ship sergeant had to dodge the marshal's chief
of staff for a while afterwards.

If senolytics are combined with anagathics in such a scenario, I can see
the following effects:

- Cost of production of both are dramatically lowered due to learning
curve progress and economies of scale;

- Badass Badass-Moustache might enlist at 35, do his 30 years, and
Master Fleet Sergeant Badass-Moustache, SEH and bars, BAMF and bar, IMF
(ret), etc emerges at chronological age of 65 a biologically younger man
than when he signed up.

- Ex-booties, let alone veterans, get shat on even more by the Imperial
aristocracy.

>
>> And how do either of those two classes of drugs differently affect
>> Vilani/Daryens/etc compared to baseline Terrans?
>
> I think that's a GM call. I'm happy to believe that they are
> different, without delving into exactly *how* they are different.
> Perhaps they are multiply different - Vilani planet X needs treatment
> A while Vilani planet Y needs treatment B and Solomani planet C needs
> treatment Z. Except that the planets have interbred over time so there
> are no simple solutions. Then again, following on from an earlier
> thought on this thread, perhaps an individual's genetic analysis (and
> a large database) would come up with the appropriate treatment?

I get where you're doing - I wasn't clear enough on my last point.  I
agree with your point about a genetic workup being needed for maximum
effect.

Consider Terrans, Vilani, Daryens, and Yaskoydri, for sake of example. 
Examples are crude and relative fractions are very probably inaccurate -
I'm aiming for notions, not notations.

Terrans - the baseline.  Check your nearest mirror.

Vilani - still suffer from all 7 major classes of aging damage, but
(say) only 60% as fast as Terrans and similarly autocatalytic.

Daryens - still suffer from 5 major classes of aging damage at Terran
rates with similar autocatalysis, but (for whatever reason, such as
Onsorik's meddling) simply _do not suffer_ mitochondrial mutations or
metabolic-generated cancer damage.  As a result, senile dementia,
Alzheimer's, etc and age-related cancer are effectively unheard of among
ethnically Daryen populations.  The Daryen equivalent of Sir Terry
Pratchett would have to go find himself another embuggerance.

Yaskoydri - suffer raw aging damage same as Terrans, but autocatalytic
effect is much weaker (feedback loop is weaker).

The Daryen, Yaskoydri and Vilani will be aging slower at a given
chronological age than their Terran counterpart, due to their lower
aging damage burdens.

Bunging carcinophagic (ie, cancer-munching) wet nano into a Terran,
Yaskoydri or Vilani will actually have a point and reduce their burden
of oncogenic aging damage.  You might as well inject a Daryen with
saline, as you'll get the same effect - sod all.

>
> Alex Goodwin:
>>
>
> My off-the-cuff response is that I don't use anti-aging drugs IMTU. I
> run a post-Collapse TU and there was a significant population which
> tried to simply outlast the Bad Times by going into cold-sleep for a
> century or two. When they woke up (or were re-awakened) they were
> universally hated for being cowards and leaving the rest of the
> population to tough it out. They are called Relics. So the very old -
> especially those who look young but act old (whatever that means) -
> tend to cause nasty reactions among the populace. This has spilled
> over into a society and a widespread avoidance of "extreme"
> age-avoidance mechanisms. Perhaps in a century or two things will have
> swung the other way. Who knows? Of course this is a GM call.
Nice dodge.  I like it.
>
> Alex Goodwin:> Don't underestimate founder effects.  Start with an
> initial group that
>> (due to chance) aged slower to begin with, apply the ol' Yaskoydray
>> Yoink, then bung them in an early evolutionary environment where
>> longevity (somehow) and genetic robustness (again somehow - Vland is not
>> the deathworld Terra is, let alone STRAYA) got selected for.  If the old
>> bastard mucked with them on top of that, how could we tell at 300,000
>> years remove?
>>
>> This didn't go as far as speciation, as GT:ISW implies (via Terrani
>> hybrids being interfertile with both parent strains and each other) that
>> Vilani are H. sapiens sapiens.
>
> I agree on both counts. At what point does Humaniti get smart enough
> to realize that the Vilani might have been messed around with
> genetically? Turning this one around, perhaps the Terran population
> was *also* messed around with? This way lies madness :-)
If the Terrans were also messed with, doesn't that just shift the baseline?
> <snip>
>> I also like to build out the background details of a setting so I can
>> figure out the stuff happening in the background, which gives not a toss
>> about the PCs (unless they cook off a nuclear device, or the like - waay
>> off topic, but have you tried a ground forces game where PCs are
>> generals?).
>
> I have. There is surprisingly little personal violence :-) You have to
> have the right set of players for it, too. Most players hate it - they
> are too much (for my taste) into hack'n'slash, and not enough into the
> story-telling (which is what I enjoy, so this becomes a challenge). As
> a GM, your choices seem to be to retire the high-level players into
> executive roles, or promote the Big Bads until the campaign is just
> hack'n'slash with bigger hacks and slashes. It's a tricky balance, and
> one which I fear I have not mastered.
>
> Jonathan

I must be lucky then with Herr Sweep, Easy Frag, Eddles and Wombat, ntm
other groups (such as the PC-generals one).  All five of us being
experienced GMs probably helps.  As does having form for _not_ running
hakkenslash (to borrow a FreeTravism) in the first place.

Alex