On Sun, 5 Oct 2014 03:11:52 -0400, Richard Aiken <xxxxxx@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Freelance Traveller <
>xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com> wrote:

>> This leads to two possible views of death - in the first view, the death
>> of the physical self represents the end of all manifestation of 'self';
>>

><snip>

>> This leads to a culture which
>> would mourn death, and which might very well lead to the technologies of
>> mummification and memorialization, as with, for example, the Nile valley
>> culture.

>I find it difficult to see the second bit following from the first bit. The
>Nile valley culture practiced mummification because they believed in a
>physical continuation of the body into the afterlife. If death really is
>The End - Period - then the body is nothing mroe than so much rotting meat.
>Right?

Perhaps. But consider the possibility that with the idea that the body
and the 'self' are inextricably linked, and the status of the former
accurately reflects the status of the latter, the idea may arise that
preserving the body preserves the 'self', and thus reanimation - and
restoration of the loved one - may be possible. This could lead also to
the ultimate development of medical knowledge and technology.

>> In the other view, the death of the physical 'self' represents a new
>> manifestation of the spiritual 'self'  . . . which would likely lead to a
>> dynamic culture
>> willing to push the limits of knowledge, in a quest to develop beyond
>> the need for a physical manifestation.

>Then the canon Vilani must take the first view, since they don't exactly
>strike me as an especially dynamic culture,

Well... we don't quite know that. Canonical information suggests that
they're not, true, but we don't know _when_ they "went static". It might
have been a reaction to the dangers of interstellar exploration; the
first starship that brought back a bug compatible with humans but not
found on Vland could have caused a pandemic that just plain scared the
Vilani that survived it.

>Of course, there's nothing to say that one can't have non-canon Vilani.

Also true.

>> Although my gut feeling says that what follows is more likely with the
>> second culture than with the first culture,

>Yep. So . . . the rest of this applies to some race other than the canon
>Vilani. Still interesting speculation, though.

Again, we don't know; the Psionics Suppressions will have severely
distorted the culture in this respect.

>> it would be possible under
>> both cultures that development of psi powers - specifically those
>> dealing with _self_ (the Awareness group, the Clairvoyance group and
>> teleportation-self) - would be viewed as spiritually favorable,
>> representing a different level of control over the spiritual 'self' and
>> therefore its manifestation of the physical 'self' than most people
>> have.

>Ummm. What is controlling the spiritual self? It certainly isn't the body.
>Did we just transition from a duality to a trinity?

No more than when we speak of "self-control".

>Or am I just reading the above wrong (as seems to be the case, based on the
>further explication below)?

Definitely an error of understanding; see comment above. When you're
exercising "self-control", what is it that's doing the controlling?

>> Other social/religious phenomena that might be expected to
>> develop would include those that show tolerance for extremes of
>> conditions or strong control over the physical self - firewalking,
>> living burial, and so on - many of the things that we normally associate
>> with Indian fakirs or other forms of mysticism from that part of the
>> world, whether we believe that they actually happen or not.  The modern
>> intolerance of psi is a result of the psychohistorical experiment that
>> culminated in the psionics suppressions, and of the association in
>> dominant Solomani traditions of psi manifestations with 'devil worship',
>> 'sorcery', or 'witchcraft'.

>And of the continuing fact that a rather irritating opponent of the Third
>Imperium (the Zhodani Consulate) has built their entire culture on the
>understanding and use of psionics.

Yes - but the Zhodani influence was part of the reason for the reaction
to the experiment in the first place.

>> As a side thought, this could also lead to two different words used to
>> refer to groups of people that the Solomani occupiers might not realize
>> are significantly different in their meaning, because of the way they
>> associate certain sounds with certain meanings - thus, we might have
>> 'bilanidin', an inhabitant of Vland, generically, and 'bilanii',
>> grammatically and semantically a caste (having religious status,
>> possibly as priests, gurus, holy men, etc.), those of Vland who have
>> achieved a certain level of control over their self-manifestations -
>> what we would call psis.

>No need for an additional caste. Simply make psionics part of the *shuglii*
>caste. It fits them quite nicely. Better than my own incorporation of
>Registered Companions into them does, actually.

Remember, you and I are dealing with the translated terms. If the
Solomani that made first contact with the Vilani did in fact miss the
nuances of difference between 'bilanidin' and 'bilanii', we'd have the
semantic situation that we do in fact have in canon - that is, both
terms would get translated the same way. Also, remember that we're also
post-Suppressions; in the MODERN Vilani system, the Bilanii - the psis -
would necessarily be a very secret caste, and might well choose to hide
'behind' the shugilii, since there IS that fit.

In the TNE 1248 "behind the claw" milieu, it's entirely possible that
the Bilanii have come out of hiding, with psi much more tolerated even
in former Imperial territory.

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