Ian, you're the one that's spindling everything to fit the limits that your imagination is imposing on the TU.

BTW, does the library data specify the exact size of the 'mammoth' liners?
In the CT-verse 'mammoth liner' wouldn't necessarily indicate the monsters of the starlanes that MT introduced.

Also, it's always been known that Striker stats did NOT correlate very well at all w/ the rest of CT.
Therefore, I choose to discount Striker & accept the rest of CT when there is a conflict.

I've always believed that High Guard was intended for military vessels. The fuel requirements were NOT the same as in the original LBB's;
(I always explained it as the difference 'tween 'mil-spec' & commercial engines but YMMV)

So go ahead & twist it any way you want to.

Those massive 'late-comer' bulk carriers still weren't needed in CT & wouldn't really be needed in MT+ except that some folks think they're cool.

And, as it has turned out, T5 has now invalidated it anyway.

If what I've read here on the TML is true, & no one has disputed it, T5 has reduced trade volume to an even lower level than CT. Definitely way, way lower than the impossibly high levels of MT.

Lastly, I never said there would be worlds w/ little service. In fact, I believe there would be plenty that would only see a ship once a month, or even less often. But they would NOT be the MT behemoths. They would be the more reasonably sized merchantmen from CT.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/24/14, Ian Whitchurch <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic
 To: xxxxxx@simplelists.com
 Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 5:23 PM

 I see your
 Traveller Adventure, and raise you a High Guard and a
 Striker (complete with world GWP calculations, local
 currency values and estimates for imports of hi-tech spare
 parts. Best supplement on the economics of Trav until G:T
 FT).

 And then we have Library Data,
 with it's mentions of Tukera with it's
 "mammoth" liners that are apparently immune, due
 to their armament and size, from attacks by small pirates
 !

 Incidentally, the minimum bridge size in CT is a killer
 for the economics of small starships. If the cargo can wait
 for the next scheduled service, then its going to be ~10%
 cheaper to ship it.

 As an aside, Ive got a personal advantage in this. I've
 lived somewhere with actual Subsidised Merchant service,
 where the boat arrived once a month, and if you wanted your
 car on the island on a schedule that didnt fit, then you
 were out of luck (King Island - in Trav terms I'd call
 it D669364-6 - it had light aircraft service, a slew of
 fishing boats, and a subsidised merchant that went
 Burnie-Naracoopa once a month).

 But yeah, you can
 break the economics, you can spindle the Imperium's
 hands-off policies into a pretzel, or you can accept with
 the Traveller universe we share, we'll get an ecosystem
 of small traders living off the scraps the big boys dont
 want.

 On Mon,
 Aug 25, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com>
 wrote:

 This email was sent from yahoo.com which does not allow
 forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the
 sender's email address (xxxxxx@yahoo.com)
 has been replaced with a dummy one. The original message
 follows:

 Nope, you've gotten it all wrong;

 I see an Imperium as detailed in CT, with many worlds with
 many differing levels of tech & industrialization, &
 with many differing levels of POP & GOV.

 There is also a vigorous & robust amount of interstellar
 trade which does NOT require the 'late-comer'
 humungous bulk transports only introduced w/ MT.

 I just found my old 'Traveller Adventure' book
 (c.1982 so CT) & looked at the few ship designs it
 had;

 200dT Freetrader J1 82t cargo

 400dT Subsidized Merchant J1 200t cargo

 600dT Subsidized Liner J3 129t cargo 25 staterooms + 20
 low

 (I usually replaced the '20 low' w/ more cargo or
 staterooms)

 I also recall a 1000dT J4 sub-liner  w/ a lot more
 staterooms & <100t cargo

 And then there's the 200dT J2 'trader, detailed in
 the 'Twilight's Peak' adv, which had reduced
 cargo capacity.

 I've also designed 1000dT (original LBB dT limit) J1
 & J2 Merchants w/ commensurately higher cargo
 capacity.

 But I can see your problem, Ian.

 You imagine a TU that just can't get along w/o those
 gigantic bulk haulers & which not only requires them but
 stringently enforces their utilization no matter what.

 --------------------------------------------

 On Sun, 8/24/14, Ian Whitchurch
 <xxxxxx@gmail.com>
 wrote:

  Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic

  To: xxxxxx@simplelists.com

  Date: Sunday, August 24, 2014, 3:32 PM

  Phil,

  I see your

  problem.

  You imagine a Traveller

  universe where all planets are equally industrialised,
 and

  where you dont have radically different levels of local

  technology. Add in the abolition of economies of scale
 in

  manufacturing and the non-existance of interstellar
 traders

  who dont see advantages in figuring whats unique from a

  world that could be shipped elsewhere for profit, and
 you

  get an Imperium without trade.

  Such an Imperium doesnt

  need cargo vessels, of course.

  On Mon,

  Aug 25, 2014 at 12:50 AM, Phil Pugliese (via tml list)
 <xxxxxx@simplelists.com>

  wrote:

  This email was sent from yahoo.com which
 does not allow

  forwarding of emails via email lists. Therefore the

  sender's email address (xxxxxx@yahoo.com)

  has been replaced with a dummy one. The original
 message

  follows:

  Responses inserted below;

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  On Sat, 8/23/14, Greg Chalik

  <xxxxxx@gmail.com>

  wrote:

   Subject: Re: [TML] expected ship traffic

   To: xxxxxx@simplelists.com

   Date: Saturday, August 23, 2014, 5:25 PM

   Greg:

   Length of trade though is not as significant.

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Phil:

  Do you mean 'length of time that the trade line has
 been

  in operation' or the physical distance of the trade

  line?

  My point was that, eventually, here on Earth, many
 places,

  that were dependant upon imported glass, eventually
 gained

  the ability to produce it domestically.

  Now, how long does/did it take for that to happen?

  I see the same process w/i the TU (incl the 3I) *unless*
 the

  demand is so low that domestic production never
 happened.

  Hence there is quite a bit of interstellar trade but never
 a

  high enough volume to require MT's massive bulk

  haulers.

  ================================================================================================

   Greg:

   Are you are

   referring to the present day Murano manufacture?
 Would

   anyone even know what glass is several thousand years

  from

   now outside of archaeologists and art historians?

   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Phil:

  Well, the analogy would work better if specific
 individual

  products aren't specified.

  (The 'glass' example was NOT introduced by me,

  BTW.)

  My position is that once volume of a particular product

  reaches a certain 'tipping' point, then
 in-system

  production would supplant it.

  And, that point would be low enough that MT's
 massive

  CIVILIAN bulk transports would not exist.

  Now, that doesn't preclude giant MILITARY vessels of
 all

  kinds as they serve a completely different purpose than
 the

  civilian ones.

  =========================================================

   Greg:

   Ok, so moving

   people, and there was once and may be again such a

  trade,

   had to be moved as bio-cargo. And?

   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Phil:

  I have the impression that you may be thinking that I
 am

  referring to a sort of 'slave trade' but I am

  not.

  I am referring to the periodic transfer of personnel
 &

  dependants (even whole households for the

  'higher-ups'?) that any large military,

  governmental, or civilian organisation would routinely

  make.

  This would require a large number of 'liner'
 type

  starships & since all the CT designs I've seen
 can

  also carry a small but significant amount of cargo,
 they

  would be transporting some cargo as along all those

  people.

  Side Note: My father was a USAAF/USAF pilot & I grew
 up

  'in' that system. Typically, every three years,
 my

  family was uprooted & shifted, lock, stock, &

  barrel, anywhere from 100's of miles to 1/2 was
 around

  the world. Every summer, cuz that was when there was no

  school, there was a massive flurry of activity at the

  airfield as families came and went. While the bulk of
 this

  was dome during the summer 'break' from school,
 it

  actually went on all year long, esp when dealing w/

  personnel w/o dependents, or other considerations.

  (sometimes families were moved in the middle of the
 school

  year).

  ===============================================================

   Greg:

   The size of the 'Trader' vessel is entirely

  relative

   to the cargo. Ever tried to deliver the hull of a

  combat

   cruiser elsewhere for the fitting of engines?
 Original

   engines 'melted' due to accident, so the

   'job' was delivery of salvage for a refit.
 There

  are

   not a lot of systems that can supply engines like
 that

  on

   short notice you know.

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Phil:

  Military 'Jump Tugs' would satisfy that need if
 the

  hull were to be 'towed' to the nearest naval

  base/shipyard.

  Alternatively, a military 'tender' capable of

  performing the repairs might be dispatched. (similar to
 the

  'tenders' &, or the 'floating
 drydocks'

  the USN has used)

  Note: I've never disputed the military's need
 for

  massive starships.

  ============================================================

   On 24 August 2014

   09:39, Phil Pugliese (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com>

   wrote:

   I never said there would NOT be a

  significant amount of long

   distance trade.

   But it would never, just as it was NOT the case in
 the

  17th

   C, be large enough to require the humongous bulk

  transports

   introduced w/ MT.

   As far as the glass produced in Venice goes;

   Did Venice hyper-specialize in glass production &

  import

   everything else?

   Also, didn't there come a time, remember the TU
 has

  been

   'trading' for thousands & thousands of

  year,

   when glass production eventually migrated to the
 places

  that

   once had to rely on imports from Venice?

   How long did that take?

   As a side note, it occurs to me that the one thing
 that

   can't be 'transferred' is people. People

  will

   have to be transported. I imagine the military, just
 as

  the

   US military does now, will be constantly moving
 people

   around.

   I recall that when GDW first published 'Merchant

   Prince'(CT), it was mentioned that they used a
 BASIC

  prg

   running on an Apple to help develop the system. I got

  them

   to send me a copy & ran it quite a bit.

   It indicated that there was a significant amount of

  civilian

   passenger traffic, even to-from less-important
 worlds.

   Also, the 'liner  could also carry a small
 amount

  of

   cargo which could make the difference 'tween
 making

  or

   losing money on some trips.

   Also, location come into play. For example, Rhylanor,
 in

  the

   'Marches, never sees FreeTraders as the nearest

  system

   is J2.

   Now, considering Rhylanors UWP, plus the fact that it

   endured a lengthy siege during the 3rdFW, it appears
 that

  it

   is largely self-sufficient.

   I can see a large amount of both civilian, military,

  &

   gov (it's a subsector cap) traffic, both cargo

  &

   passenger.

   Enough for starships larger than the various

  'Traders?

   Definitely.

   Enough for the gigantic bulk freighters from MT? Not

  even

   remotely close.

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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