On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:48:29 -0400, xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote to Freelance
Traveller:

>On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:34 PM Jeff Zeitlin <xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Canonically, they don't exist. However, I seem to recall that such things
>> as postal unions and customs unions are permissible within the Imperial
>> framework, and the Imperium allows its member worlds almost total autonomy
>> provided that they (a) pay their taxes, (b) don't eff with trade*, and (c)
>> no you may NOT have nukes, those are MINE.

>This 'nuke' part is a bit silly to my mind. Can you have charged particle
>weapons? Can you have meson guns? Can you have disintegrators? The
>prohibition should be far wider than simply nuclear missiles.

Well, that prohibition was from fairly early on, and may have pre-dated the
inclusion of CPWs and Meson weapons. And 'disintegrators' _still_ aren't
part of the canonical setting...

>How does a "customs union" in a multi-planet setting or a multi-system
>setting make any sense if you can't charge any tariffs, duties or taxes on
>trade?

This is actually pretty easy:

In the United States, we have a concept of 'airport of entry'. An AoE is
one that has access to customs services (on airports with scheduled
international service, it's a permanent presence; on airports which only
see the occasional private/chartered international flight, it's usually
handled with the airport traffic control making a phone call that results
in an inspector being sent from the nearby municipality). Not all airports
are AoE; if you're flying into the US from outside, you may only land at an
AoE. Flights originating from outside the US are universally processed by
Customs; flights operating entirely within the US are not. There are,
additionally, US regulations that prohibit foreign-flag carriers from
making domestic flights, and even US-flagged international flights do not
have "continuing" flights after entry (that is, a flight from LHR will not
land at JFK and then go on to ORD. It ends at JFK, and passengers wishing
to go on to ORD process through customs at JFK, and then board a separate
flight JFK-ORD that is scheduled as a 'connecting' flight).

Once you have been processed by US Customs, you are permitted to travel
domestically without further restriction among the fifty States (subject to
any visa restrictions that may exist, but I understand that in general,
visa restrictions are only on _what_ you may do [e.g., tourist, student,
work], not _where_).

When a world joins the Imperium, part of the process is a cession by the
world of a parcel of land, officially to establish the Imperial presence
on-world and build an Imperial starport. This, by definition, becomes the
_main_ starport for the world in Imperial records. It is also the "Starport
of Entry".

There is nothing that canonically requires that the Imperium take over
traffic control for the entire system; this can therefore be left in system
hands. System traffic control can now direct traffic based on its origins
to either the main starport or to any subsidiary starports that may exist.

Our example world, Alfera, is in a customs union with Bravonia and
Charlimark (the ABC Customs Union). Traffic from any world outside the ABC
Customs Union is directed to the Imperial starport, and when goods cross
the XT line between the cession and Alfera, Alfera customs does their
thing.

A ship originating at e.g., Deltaros will land at the Imperial starport at
Alfera, but if their next jump is to Bravonia or Charlimark, they may
request processing by Alfera customs, who will process all passengers and
goods destined for Bravonia or Charlimark, and require that they be
segregated and sealed off from all passengers and goods that will _not_ be
disembarked at Bravonia or Charlimark.

However, if a ship jumps in from Bravonia or Charlimark, and can show that
it has been processed by Bravonia or Charlimark customs (or that it
originated from Bravonia or Charlimark, and therefore has nothing aboard
that wasn't embarked _at_ Bravonia or Charlimark), it can be directed to
one of the non-Imperial starports on Alfera, where goods and passengers
already processed can be unsealed and debarked - no separate customs
clearance is necessary. Goods and passengers not already processed,
however, may not be debarked _except_ at the Imperial starport, and a ship
landing at the Imperial starport that can certify that they were processed
by Bravonia or Charlimark customs may _separately_ debark those processed
goods and passengers, who are permitted to cross the XT line without
further processing.

(Normally, because of the sealing requirement, ships from outside the ABC
Customs Union rarely ask for processing at their first port of call within
the Union. They also do not generally carry goods or passengers between the
worlds of the Union.)

>> So stands the question: What inter-world organizations/pacts/et cetera are
>> allowed, and when (other than by specifically trying to declare one) does a
>> group of worlds "cross the line" from allowed agreements to Being A Polity?
>>
>
>One marker would be:
>
>Members of multiple worlds have a role in electing any body that has broad
>governing authority over those multiple worlds.

How do you define 'broad governing authority'? If the worlds of the
Pennesyllian Cultural Area form an Academy for the Preservation of
Pennesyllian Culture, which may act as an arbiter of What is
Pennesyllianism, and the Academy's declarations are given the force of law
on the Pennesyllian worlds, have those worlds crossed the line if they have
elections to the Board of Regents of the Academy?

>Now, if you had 10 different forms of union that covered the major areas...
>that'd look a lot like what I just mentioned but without it actually being
>that. So a more stringent rule might need to be in place.
>
>But if you can have a few types of unions (postal, customs), then what
>other kinds could you have (or be prohibited from having)?

That's what I'm asking here...

>> * This is interpreted loosely - worlds can impose tariffs, but they can't
>> do so in a discriminatory manner - if frammistams from Potrzebie are
>> tariffed, frammistams from Furshlugginer must also be tariffed, and at the
>> same rates.

>Well, that's a long way from 'no tariffs or taxes on trade'. That is 'fair'
>taxes and tarrifs on trade (equal treatment of goods regardless of origin).
>THAT makes sense to me and if you could still collect taxes via
>tariffs/duties, then most polities *could* in fact live with that. You give
>up some granular control, but you can still do some taxing.

>Now, even then, there's some stupidity.... that means you can't have a
>strong trade partnership where both partners profit from mutual cooperation
>and reciprocal benefits. That does bend 'free trade' but it can also be a
>potent benefit for two close trading partners which could well increase the
>volume of trade.

>I think that's the gist of the Zaibatsu system Japan used to have (groups
>of companies). They still have a similar (but differ in ways) thing called
>a Kiretsu (sp?) now. If you work at company A, and you need to procure a
>zocblock from someone, if there is a company B in your Kiretsu, then you
>are expected to deal with them. Similarly, they will be expected to deal
>with you for whatever you produce if they need it versus an out-of-Kiretsu
>partner.

I think the Romaji spelling is "keiretsu". I'd insert the kanji, but this
mail client doesn't handle Unicode properly. A cursory bingleducking
suggests that the only essential difference between a zaibatsu and a
keiretsu is that the companies of a zaibatsu were all owned by the same
family (for Japanese definitions of 'family').

>And what about environmental costs? Let's assume I only want 'osmium
>neutral' railgun main accelerator elements. If I get RMAEs from
>manufacturer A on Lakadakastan, they may dip their rails in osmium
>phantaside and the mining of that is very bad for the environment. The
>RMAEs from Uagaduguland manufacturer B does not use rail dipping at all, so
>their product is more 'osmium neutral' and thus better for the environment.

>Is that a valid cause for discriminating between two similar products?
>Methods of manufacture? It sure is in our little corner of the Milky Way.

>What about child labour as a labour source?

All of these can be handled - for example:

"Alfera Interstellar Trade Regulations §642.17(b)5(iv): Regardless of
origin, all goods to be imported to Alfera must be clearly labelled with
the name of the world on which they were produced or assembled. If
components of such goods were produced or assembled on other worlds, or raw
materials used in production or assembly of such goods originated on other
worlds, such origin must be documented in detail."

"Alfera Code of Government Contracting §A1287.14(B)IV(a)7: Because of
practices repugnant to the sensibilities of Alfera, no company or
individual contracting with the Government of Alfera may source materials
from any world listed in Appendix Q-68 if such materials are to be used to
fulfill the terms of any contract between the Government of Alfera and such
individual or company."

"Alfera Government Code of Ethics in Contracting Title MCDXCII Chapter 10
Section L (inter alia): _Cetere Paribus_, companies and individuals of
Alfera national origin are to be preferred as contractors with the
Government of Alfera."

"Alfera Government Code of Ethics in Contracting Title MCMLXXXIV Chapter 4
Section A (inter alia): _Cetere Paribus_, companies and individuals whose
environmental practices conform to the standard suggested by the Alferan
Coalition of Environmentalists are to be preferred as contractors with the
Government of Alfera."

(Advertisement from the Society for Environmental Responsibility: "Friends,
are you aware that the use of handwavium is environmentally unfriendly?
Call us for our pamphlet outlining the dangers of handwavium, or visit our
netsite at ... . You'll find all the information presented in an
easy-to-understand form, and we even include a list of products and
manufacturers that use handwavium in environmentally unfriendly ways...
[The Society for Environmental Responsibility is a member of the Alferan
Coalition of Environmentalists, and fully subscribes to its standards.]")

>> Ditto prohibiting the import of products; you can prohibit the
>> importation of widgets, but you can't prohibit the importation of widgets
>> from Wadgit without also prohibiting their import from Boff. Obviously,
>> just like the 'no slavery' clause, there are ways to Play Games without
>> Ticking Off Someone Who Would Have To Notice...

>I think there would be a lot of pressure for the Imperium to define a list
>of criteria which would be imperissable reasons to discriminate or the
>converse - the reasons that are legitimate. I also suspect trade
>magistrates would exist to rule on edge cases or new aspects of trade that
>haven't been ruled on before.

Government of Men, not Laws, remember? This is where "Don't Tick Off
Someone Who Would Have To Notice" comes into play. If it doesn't bother the
local Imperial Noble (or if you've bought him off), you're in the clear.

>A more *likely* version of the Imperial approach would be:

It's possible. But remember, "Government of Men, not Laws". As long as
Someone Who Would Have To Notice doesn't, anything goes, in reality. His
Imperial Majesty expects any noble he appoints to govern an area to remit a
certain amount annually; as long as that happens, HIM is not going to Have
To Notice unless someone is persistent and annoying (or too important to
ignore). And so on down the line. Even the MegaCorps are likely to keep
quiet; if Tukera force Count Otrí to Notice that Baron Norab has been
playing footsie with Alfera in a way that disadvantages Tukera, Her
Excellency may decide, out of irritation (Baron Norab has, after all, been
properly remitting to her accounts), to investigate Tukera's operations
_throughout_ her County, and find that she has to Notice also that Sir
kimStanzas has been playing footsie with Upsilonti to Tukera's _advantage_
to a greater degree than they were losing out on Alfera...

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