[TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (02 May 2014 04:36 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (02 May 2014 06:40 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Knapp (02 May 2014 06:44 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (02 May 2014 07:37 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Knapp (02 May 2014 18:11 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (04 May 2014 06:02 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (04 May 2014 06:57 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Bruce Johnson (04 May 2014 14:31 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (05 May 2014 04:24 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question shadow@xxxxxx (05 May 2014 09:45 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Bruce Johnson (05 May 2014 16:48 UTC)
RE: [TML]Chemistry Question Anthony Jackson (06 May 2014 21:11 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (08 May 2014 04:05 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (08 May 2014 04:07 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (08 May 2014 04:10 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Knapp (08 May 2014 05:30 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (08 May 2014 06:43 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (08 May 2014 08:14 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (08 May 2014 15:17 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Bruce Johnson (08 May 2014 16:01 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question shadow@xxxxxx (09 May 2014 08:48 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Richard Aiken (09 May 2014 09:21 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Craig Berry (09 May 2014 23:38 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Bruce Johnson (09 May 2014 14:47 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (09 May 2014 15:51 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Knapp (09 May 2014 20:54 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Bruce Johnson (09 May 2014 21:50 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Phil Pugliese (09 May 2014 23:09 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Tim (10 May 2014 07:32 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Phil Pugliese (10 May 2014 17:10 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Rob O'Connor (10 May 2014 08:45 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (10 May 2014 21:13 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Phil Pugliese (10 May 2014 22:04 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (11 May 2014 04:40 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (11 May 2014 06:22 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Phil Pugliese (11 May 2014 15:57 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Bruce Johnson (12 May 2014 19:04 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Phil Pugliese (12 May 2014 19:13 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Bruce Johnson (12 May 2014 20:52 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (12 May 2014 21:32 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Phil Pugliese (12 May 2014 22:21 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion youngerpliny@xxxxxx (12 May 2014 21:41 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (11 May 2014 06:47 UTC)
Re:[TML]ChemistryQuestion Rob O'Connor (12 May 2014 08:48 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (12 May 2014 19:32 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (12 May 2014 20:49 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (13 May 2014 00:22 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (14 May 2014 02:45 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (14 May 2014 03:53 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (14 May 2014 04:20 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Kelly St. Clair (14 May 2014 06:11 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Bruce Johnson (14 May 2014 17:37 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (14 May 2014 18:00 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Bruce Johnson (14 May 2014 18:51 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Jeffrey Schwartz (14 May 2014 19:09 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Bruce Johnson (14 May 2014 20:20 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (14 May 2014 20:35 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (15 May 2014 03:51 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (15 May 2014 05:33 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (15 May 2014 07:44 UTC)
Grey Goo (Was: ChemistryQuestion) Mikko Parviainen (15 May 2014 08:39 UTC)
Re: [TML] Grey Goo (Was: ChemistryQuestion) Tim (15 May 2014 11:38 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (16 May 2014 06:20 UTC)
RE: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Anthony Jackson (16 May 2014 16:29 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (20 May 2014 06:28 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Knapp (20 May 2014 17:55 UTC)
RE: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Anthony Jackson (20 May 2014 18:32 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Richard Aiken (21 May 2014 08:14 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Tim (21 May 2014 13:05 UTC)
Re: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Phil Pugliese (23 May 2014 08:09 UTC)
RE: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Anthony Jackson (14 May 2014 20:44 UTC)
RE: [TML]ChemistryQuestion Anthony Jackson (14 May 2014 20:52 UTC)
Re: [TML]Chemistry Question Knapp (06 May 2014 20:53 UTC)

Re: [TML]Chemistry Question shadow@xxxxxx 09 May 2014 08:48 UTC

On 8 May 2014 at 4:14, Richard Aiken wrote:

>
> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Tim <xxxxxx@little-possums.net> wrote:
>     On Thu, May 08, 2014 at 12:05:24AM -0400, Richard Aiken wrote:
>     > Those favoring irreducible complexity have a point that a chemical
>     > process with ~23 steps (none of which do anything alone or in any
>     other
>     > combination of each other)
>
> They can stop right there. Those steps *do* do something without the
> full cycle. I don't know when your text was written, so maybe it's
> just obsolete rather than wilfully blind.
> IIRC, the point was that parts of the cycle do not do anything useful
> to *that* organism. That is, the organism doesn't gain any benefit
> from any of the intermediate steps, only from the end product of the
> full process.

Sorry, but the article actually says the exact opposite.

Just because those steps don't do anything useful other than as part
of the Krebs cycle in the *current* organism doesn't mean they
weren't steps in some *other* process in ancestor organisms.

They've even found evidence of those other uses in some cases. Which
leads to the ID folks demanding that they *prove* that it was true
for all steps.

This is the same game as the old "where are the intermediate
fossils?" BS. They ask that, then when an intermediate is found,
demand why there aren't intermediates between it and the original
two.

In short, they are playing "move the target", *knowing* that finding
what they want is nigh on impossible. And when it is found, they
shift targets because the odds of finding evidence (that they'll be
forced to accept) for *all* the steps are virtually nil.

--
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow)
shadow at shadowgard dot com