I rely on travellermap data as fetched through the API. Minor or native races should be indicated in the remarks, for example, the remarks for the Cymbeline system say "Ph (Chips)0". For Victoria in the Spinward Marches the remarks are "Ic Na Va Pi" (or {"Ice-Capped", "Non Agricultural", "Vacuum", "Pre-industrial"}). How can I find that there is a minor race associated with the system from that data? 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:23 AM Phil Pugliese - philpugliese at yahoo.com (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> wrote:
Thanks to both for all the info.

A few observations;

First off, there is no mention of one of the earliest documented 'human minor races', that being the natives of Victoria in the S'Marches while the 'Vexx'(?) on Condoyle/S'Marches are listed.

Also, I wonder where the line is drawn 'tween 'human chimera', 'minor human race', & 'human ethnic group'.
After all, the Ancients were capable of quite extensive genetic manipulation weren't they?
I'm sure they must've experimented quite a bit on all of the 'minor human races'.

The Sworld Worlders & natives of Vanejem are listed as 'human ethnic groups' but none are listed for Terra altho a bunch of 'Vargr Ethnic Groups' are listed for Lair.
Seems to me that a whole lot of the ZS worlds would've turned into distinct ethnic groups during the isolation made possible by the 'Long Night'.

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On Tuesday, October 20, 2020, 02:35:51 AM MST, Thomas Jones-Low <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:


One of the things your analysis assumes is the communication is being done by radio/laser communication over interstellar distances. This is the assumption in the original article you cited.

The Cymbeline for example don't have the technology to achieve that. They should be removed from the map, or marked with a different color. This is true of every sophont with a TL of 5 or less. 

The harder question to answer is what would the TL of the races contacted by the Vilani be if they were not contacted. 

If you want this list in a more data friendly format, let me know and I'll show you how. 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 12:20 AM Vareck Bostrom <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:
There's no real information that can be easily extracted from the map. The closest to Terra are the Chips in the Cymbeline system (6.08 parsec), then the Vegans in Muan Gwi (10.53). Cymbeline has a real-world star associated with it, L399-68 ( http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-id?Ident=L399-68&NbIdent=1&Radius=2&Radius.unit=arcmin&submit=submit+id ), but that is the only one.


The names of the civilizations are:
A'Ach'En
Acheron
Ael, Yael
Agryxani
Ahetaowa
Amindii
Anakundu
Ancari
Anlisleans
Answerin
Aquamorphs
Aquan
Ashdak, Meshukiiba
Ashiin
Athar
Ayansh'i
Azhanti
Bahku
Beree
Bhunj
Blimps
Blotches
Brinn
Bruhre
Bwampbs
Bwaps
Bzruellokh
Cafadians
Calipha
Cassilldans
Chinmaya
Chips
Chokari
Corsettin
Crawni
Creature
Crenduthaar
Crocodiles
Daccamites
Darmine
Daryen
Denaar
Dishaan
Domination
Dphone
Droyne
Ebokin
Edlun
Eershe'yaat
Eliyoh
Ergosians
Evantha
Feime
Fervoriani
Floriani
Garoo
Geehrtahe
Geonee
Giiguuglum
Githiaskio
Gl'lu
Gniivi
Gograhhah
Gonzans
Graytch
Grkaadudgaagii
Gumahl
Gurungan
Gya, Ks
Halkans
Hamaran
Hanen
Happrhani
Hhrachddrumm
Hlatoi
Hloan
Hminor
H'Oskhikhil
Huosua
Igikur
Ilraiki
Iltharans
Inchok
Irdu
Irhadre
Ishumi
Iziri
J'aadje
Jala'Lak
Jaylay-yay
Jgd-il-Jagd
Jonkeereen
J'sia
Kachiya
Kaggushus
Ka, Kelaree
Kamgik
Kaski
Katl*lalt
Kebkh
Khethss
Khulans
Kiakh'iee
Kidulan
Kirissukyoya
Kolipians
Kolzar
Kurakhash
Ladybugs
Lamura, Gav/Teg
Lancians
Languljigee
Larianz
Lasat
Lass-lumminm
Lhshana
Liberts
Llellewyloly
Llyrnian
Loeskalth
Lumu
Lurent
Luriani/Roryniar
Mahkahraik
Marzians
Maskai
Mewey
Miiminri
Mikhidians
Minaurians
Minlad
minor (x15)
Miyavine
M'nengi
Mockmoles
Morlocks
Neiikhi
Nenlat
Nexxies
Nind
Ningho
Nullians
Obeyery
Obopebel
Ojehshodu
Opedia
Opliaraz
Ormine
Orpheides
Otarri
Otrai
Peth
Polyphemes
Q'ekzle
Qiceteu
Ronnin
Rynkatropa
Salika
Saurians
Schalli
Segani
Selenite
Serpents
Shassahhrhi
Shela
Sheol
Shi'awei
Shrashee
Shriekers
Sidurii
Sielienzhia
Sigka
Sokorrin
Souggvuez
Sst'ankh'rii
Stalkers
Suerrat
Sulliji
Sundowners
Sydites
Syleans
Tagi
Tahavi
Tapazmal
Tashaki
Taumotuo
Tethmari
Thaggeshi
Thaki
Thorellians
Tirril
Tlenk
Tlyetrai
Tobai
T'yeh
Ulane
Ungrest
Urpayans
Ursa
Ursty
Urunishani
Vapethi
Varaku
Vegans
Vexx
Viji
Virushi
Vozkell
Whaiz
Wuans
Xapoqi
Xienner
Xu'rokotani
Yafizethe
Yaitlat
Yn-tsai
Yont
Zhurphani
Ziadd
Ziriduluush
Zithari
Z'krall

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:46 AM Phil Pugliese - philpugliese at yahoo.com (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> wrote:
Gee, that's a lot of minor races.

How many of them are human, I wonder?

Of course, The Ancients probably 'discovered' all of them & who knows what they did, or didn't do to/with them.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sunday, October 18, 2020, 04:43:03 PM MST, Vareck Bostrom <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:


If you use the minor race data from Travellermap, which I have drawn here as small blue circles: https://i.imgur.com/qm4MWrv.png

I would say that Traveller is far more than Generous. The mean distance between any two of those civilizations is 5.88 parsec, and the furthest any of them is from another minor civilization is 25.16 parsec. Some of them are so inconsequential that they are named nothing more than "minor":


On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 4:48 AM <xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:


The english in the article is not so good. The research appears to be in preprint stages and originates from the University of Nottingham.

Pessimistic view: 4 civilizations actively communicating.
Average view: 35 civilizations actively communicating.
Generous view: 211 civilizations actively communicating.
Mean Separation: 17K light years (out of our ability to detect).
The Generous view seems to lead to a seperation of a few hundred light years.
Assumptions obviously made, some changes made to the Drake Equation (or at least particular choices of inputs).

Hopefully this research will reach a printable stage and we can see the actual study/article.

If the Generous view is taken, and distances between communicating civilizations are a few hundred light years, that would mean 100+ Jump-1s (ObTrav). I'm not sure the difference between Vland and Terra or Vland and Zhodane, etc, but they might fall within a few hundred to a thousand light years separation.

The number of sophonts in the TU can't really be compared to these metrics simply because many may not have been communicating when contacted. There may be many more of those.

Of course, if you went with the average case, 35 communicating civilizations around the galaxy, 17K ly separation, that's over 4K Jump-1s between.

So the OTU, if these numbers have any validity (entirely questionable!), would need to fall under the Generous assumption.

TomB
PS - I look at these things as interesting and kinda fun, like gambling or astrology... I feel like the assumptions involved make the outcomes as valid as casting carved bones with runes on them to help make decisions.

--
“The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.” ― Aristotle

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