OK, let's take the March Harrier for a spin. In an alternative universe to my TTA, the crew, instead of faffing around on Yebab, Jumped to Jesedipere, Rugbird, Towers, Nasemin and back to Yebab doing some trading along the way but inexplicably gas giant refuelling instead of paying at the starport. In fact, an alternate crew could probably do this and still be back before the regular crew have stopped faffing around on Yebab. :-) (No, really, I'm having fun. I just can't believe how many sessions have grown out of a throwaway line I bunged into some news reports for fun.)

So, a 400-ton Subsidized Merchant with Kunal Dins as pilot. Pilot 2 and DEX 9 (+1). The piloting tasks of Traveller Companion don't say you can add dexterity but it seems like you should be allowed.

They arrive at Jesedipere and head out to the gas giant. (I'd have liked a rule where 'small gg' or 'large gg' made a difference, but no matter.)

They can't refuel at level 1. Wisp but can refuel at level 2. Extreme Shallow (where there's no Piloting penalty), it just takes longer. Let's do that. The book is clear that "crossing from one layer to another" requires the Average Pilot check, so there's no requirement to roll to enter level 1. Wisp. No problem with power. No problem with turbulence. Captain Loyd orders the refuelling sequence to begin and Kunal heads for level 2. Extreme Shallows. Maybe Tess the Engineer makes a roll to ensure power is good and the engines are within parameters. Fred the Steward could check any passengers aboard are strapped in. Adma stands by in case of injuries due to turbulence. Lily straps in with a grin on her face looking forward to the ride and secretly hoping it *is* bumpy. Egon's probably in the gunner's seat in case there are comfy pirates lurking in the layers. Gvoudzon will most likely be showing off his newest waistcoat to anyone who cares and who's not otherwise busy.

Kunal crosses the boundary and makes her check:

<roll> 8 + 2 skill + 1 dex = 11. No negative DM for Extreme Shallows. (I *think* that's the DM from the pilot checks being applied NOT a DM made up of the layer number. If it were the latter she'd be subtracting 1).

Either way, no buffeting.

1st pass <roll> 5 takes 5 minutes and obtains 1% of 400 tons worth of fuel = 4 tons.

2nd pass <roll> 4 takes 4 minutes and obtains 1% of 400 tons worth of fuel = 4 tons.

3rd pass 11 mins

4th pass 3 mins

5th pass 7 mins

So after half an hour they've skimmed 20 tons of fuel.

6th = 7 mins, 7th pass = 8 mins, 8th = 6 mins, 9th = 7 mins, 10th pass = 3 mins. Another half hour (31 mins) and another 20 tons of fuel. They need 52 tons, so another 3 passes will fill 'er up. 9 + 9 + 4 = 22 mins.

So in 82 minutes, or let's call it an hour and a half if we assume that the 'passes' are all discreet things rather than just one long continuous run - not quite sure why, they're refuelled and can head back out.

Cross the boundary layer to 1. Wisp:

<roll> 9 + 2 skill + 1 dex = 12. Not a sign of buffeting.

They Jump to Rugbird.

Everyone's at their stations. Gvoudzon's in his wardrobe.

Kunal makes her check as they pass from Wisp to ExSh:

<roll> 4 + 2 + 1 dex = 7. ooooh, buffeting. Now she has to make a Difficult Pilot check to avoid damage. Things are bumpy.

<roll> 8 but again no DM for ExSh layers. Fail. Damage determined by a number of dice = to the layer they're trying to enter: 2. <roll> 11.

There's no armour so this comes straight off the 160 Hull Points of a Subsidized Merchant and reduces it to 149. (but isn't a critical hit as it was only 2 under the 10 and it isn't a sustained damage hit which would be 16 points of damage).

[please, anyone correct me if I've got this wrong]

Kunal now has to attempt to cross the layer boundary again:

<roll> 12. Not a problem this time. "Sorry folks," she calls.

Now it doesn't say so, but I *might* be inclined to either have PCs rolls a small amount of damage themselves if the buffeting is severe (e.g. 1D6) or perhaps all roll 2D6 if they choose *instead* of hull damage just to have more role playing fun. Not sure. Not considered the implications. Comments welcome. Alternatively, use the critical hits location table to NOT determine a critical hit but to determine a bit of the ship Tess might want to look at next downtime (and if it's 'crew' then have them take some cosmetic damage but not a critical hit - which would be 1D to someone).

Gvoudzon falls backwards against the wardrobe door and calls Adma to mend his sorry tail.

OK, onto Towers.

By now they have an SOP and Fred is instructed to make sure, forcibly if necessary, that Gvoudzon is strapped in.

Kunal goes in <roll> 8 + 2 + 1 no buffeting. 90 minutes or so and they refuel

Kunal heads out <roll> 6 no buffeting

Jump to Nasemin

7 - no buffeting

6 - no buffeting

Jump to Yebab

9 - no buffeting

4 + 2 + 1 = 7 "Hang on folks!"

She throws her Difficult roll:

7, so once again 2d6 damage: 5. Hull now down to 145 - which crosses the Sustained Damage threshold of 16 so a Critical Hit is inflicted: 10 - Jump Drive. All checks to use the Jump drive suffer DM-2. Let's hope Yebab's C class port can sort the problem.

Although this does raise the question, which I can't find an answer to in the book is how you repair hull damage. Is it only at a starport? How long does it take to get back to 160? What does it cost?

Also, I've just realized that Kunal can add her DMs to the second roll. The Difficult one to avoid damage from the buffeting. So in actual fact, with the rolls above, there would have been no damage on either occasion. But let's stick with what I've written for the sake of example and just assume her rolls were a bit lower.

So, all in all, it will take waaaay longer to get to the gas giant most likely than it will to actually refuel, but seems pretty safe if they stay in the Extreme Shallows. Even if Captain Loyd took over at the controls. Of course, I've skipped over any lurking threat in the layers and all the Sensor rolls (which, as it happens, Ghazan would be good at should he choose to travel with them).

Or am I missing something?

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 21:10, Thomas RUX <xxxxxx@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi kaladorn,

On 10/10/2020 11:58 AM xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

That ruleset is broken.

Smaller ships ought to get a positive DM because they have lower inertia and can avoid the worst pockets of disturbance vs the big guys..

I would use:

100 and down: +3

101-400 +2

401-900 +1

901+ 0

Big ships crash through obstacles and are tough enough to take it

Smaller ships dodge.

Wouldn't the difference in frame strength affect the DMs?

Tom Rux

Alt 2:

Damage from gas giant is magnified by size as bigger ships get hit all over and some are big enough to span a pressure gradient or border of cells in disturbance leading to torques and stresses.

In this model, damage is allocated as:

100 or less D3

101 to 400 D6

401 to 900 2D6

901-1600 3D6

1601-2500 4D6

2501-3600 5D6

3601-4900 6D6

4901-6400 7D6

6401-8100 8D6

8101-10000 9D6

10001-12100 10D6

Etc

Or some different curve along this approach...

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 14:28 Alex Goodwin, < xxxxxx@multitel.com.au> wrote:

As I've been gradually applying more rules (as I grok them), Drake et al
decided to skim themselves some "cheap fuel". Dice karma and hilarity
ensued.

After limping through Jump and into Prometheus Highport, Nikki had to
spend four weeks in drydock stripping the _Paradise_'s compromised
armour shell, untwisting the aft frames, spending approx 500k solars
chasing up new armour, and then fitting same. As opposed to 20k solars
for a load of refined fuel.

Further reading through the rules in question (sustained-damage crits,
and GG skimming) lead me to the question in the topic. Does PC
overconfidence + small ship necessarily massively elevate risk of neat
burial in J. Random Gas Giant?

Is this me overthinking things, me misinterpreting the rules (a distinct
possibility), Mongoose's love of thinking thru
implications/interactions, or something else?

Sustained-damage critical:

MGT2 Core, p158:

"A ship will suffer a severity 1 critical hit every time it loses 10%
(rounded up) of its starting hull (points)."

GG skimming:

MGT2 Companion, p 156:

"Crossing from one layer to another, up or down, requires an Average
(8+) Pilot check with the largest negative DM for depth applied. Success
indicates the ship has successfully crossed to the new layer without
much more than some buffeting. In the event of failure, the ship fails
to cross the layer and is bounced back with considerable violence. A
second Pilot check, this one at Difficult (10+) difficulty and subject
to the DM for the layer the ship is currently in, is required to avoid
damage. If this check is failed, the ship suffers a number of dice in
damage equal to the number of the layer it is trying to enter. So, a
ship trying to enter the Deep layer and failing, suffers 4D Hull damage
unless the pilot can succeed the second check."

For some concrete examples:

A stock 200 dton ship (such as the _Butchers' Paradise_ ) has 80 hull
points, thus it would endure a severity 1 critical every 8 points of
hull damage. 100 dton ships have half those totals.

A stock 1000 dton ship (such as the container freighter _Astral
Venture_) has 400 hull points, etc

A stock 5000 dton ship (such as the mobile depot ship _Gadget
Hackwrench_) has 1,000 hull points, etc

Up towards the higher end, a stock 25,000 dton ship (such as the light
battleship TCS _Wubbo Ockels_) has 12,500 hull points, etc.

The Extreme Shallows are the highest layer with enough fuel to be worth
skimming (at 10% of full rate), and cause 2D6 buffeting damage when the
pilot messes up. Assuming two points of armour and said armour applies,
the hapless hundred-ton ship has a ~70% chance of copping a
sustained-damage critical, assuming no existing damage. The _Paradise_
would have a 16% chance of copping a sustained-damage crit straight up.
The bigger ships would point and laugh.

The Shallows pentuple skim rate (to 50% of full rate), but causes 3D6
buffeting damage. That would give the _Paradise_ a 62% chance of a
straight-up sustained-damage crit, and 91% for the hapless
hundred-tonner (which would include a 62% chance of 2+ sustained-damage
crits in that 91% chance). Again, the bigger ships aren't too concerned
(although the _Astral Venture_'s captain may wonder why she was trying
to skim in the first place).

Is the sustained damage critical automagically applied to the hull, or
is it rolled anew like a combat hit?

If it's automagic, it might well end up uber tragic for the hapless
hundred-tonner - I would tend to not apply armour to hull damage caused
by crits. A sev 1 hull crit on a 100 dton ship has even chances of
inflicting _another_ sustained damage critical - in the automagic case,
that ups the sev 1 hull hit to a sev 2 hull hit. 2D6 _more_ damage has
a 90-odd % chance of inflicting _another_ hull crit, as the Spiral O'
Clobbering almost certainly continues until the hapless ship breaks up.

Having typed that out, I now really don't like the automagic case.

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