The Japanese were isolationist for a very long time. And they were violently so at times. Even today, there is still a significant amount (among a sector of the population) of ... discrimination is probably fair. There are many more hurdles to doing a variety of things (as far as becoming a Japanese citizen, starting a business, etc) that would seem very foreign to most of us. And where they are culturally now is *a long way* from where they were in the middle of the last century or last part of the century before.

They are a VERY traditional society and there are VERY particular ways you do business with them, the way you act as a employee or CEO, or even how you are to behave at a funeral. In the martial arts, very few foreigners will get past 2nd or 3rd degree black belt in most traditional arts because at those levels, awards of belts are not so clear cut as to be simply about technique... and I have seen senior ranks (depending on the art, some could have 10 dan ranks and the last four or five are almost never, or never in some arts, occupied by occidentals or anyone non-Japanese... and the argument trotted out is 'Well, you can't really understand... you weren't born Japanese."

This society is very willing to do business with the world. It has seen other, better, ways to do a lot of social things that would reduce the bureaucracy, open up prosperity and competition, and so on. And yet, these are not the Japanese way. They have not been, and even as they have changed, like the ostensible doing away with zaibatsus (in favour of the fairly similar in practical ways kieretsus). They seem to adapt to the world in many ways by quietly making it easier for the rest of the world to behave more Japanese when dealing with the Japanese.

Your view assumes the populations on Vilani worlds were downtrodden and pent up and waiting for freedom. I can't really say that's not accurate, but another view could easily hold that they may have not wanted to be absorbed, but once absorbed for hundreds of years and getting used to the Vilani way of doing things (and being encouraged in the same ways the Japanese encourage others to meet them on *the Japanese' level*), they may culturally be not at all feeling that downtrodden or pent up. The Vilani, if you are part of their grown empire, could well be fairly benevolent (after you give up any notion of doing things other ways) as they are about community, about efficiency to not waste resources, and about increasing steadily without massive shocks to the system which can really cause significant social harms.

There were many places that Rome conquered in its days where leaderships were co-opted or 'removed', where they stamped out rebellion, but also offered benefits from being a part of the Empire. In the places where they used more soft power than hard, they often had very good relationships with the Romans and some fair number of people in the oldest captured areas, after hundreds of years, would think of themselves as part of the Roman Empire (perhaps not as Romans any more than someone not Japanese would think of themselves as Japanese) and their entire cultural and value system may have been heavily inculcated.

Terrans coming along and throwing out their newfangled 'catch as catch can' freedom (not that it was freedom either, as the Solomani took firm hold of things militarily) may not have been greeted with any great pleasure by many of the partially integrated populations that had been held for centuries. That also means the places that had the vast bulk of higher populations in the ZS.

This is why I don't see the ZS as suddenly being de-Vilani-ized and having the nobles just vanished. Unlike most modern nobles who have only titular positions and get a lavish lifestyle because of that, the Ziru Sirka Vilani would a) not waste resources on frippery and flash, being more conservative and respectful of good resource allocation, and b) they actually WORKED for a living in government (not just as figureheads) because that sense of a need to be productive is embedded in Vilani culture from way back, maybe almost to the point of genetic memory. So their governments were much less likely to be corrupt in the ways Terrans would and their focus would be on the good of the larger populations as long as they recognized the Vilani values.

Today Japan would not give up some of its ways because that might cost them their justly world renowned efficiency. They can do (in public works) in one night what would take months in other cultures. That's partly technical, largely logistical, but also highly culturally motivated - if you have to replace a major overpass on a key urban highway, work may start around 11 pm and be done by 7 pm but 1000 workers may not be an understatement. They show up with everything planned, everyone knowing their role and the timetable, and so on. It is a *point of shame* among the companies that do this work if they ever impact rush hour traffic flows no matter the scale of the repairs or replacements. That is NOT what we get in our 'oh so free' countries like the US and Canada and I'll hazard a guess at the same in the UK. (Not that they have a transit system in London... just an interesting an claustrophobic way to spend a long part of your day covering a few km either way).

Additionally, winning a space war and dominating space is FAR from being able to change large populations and even their leadership and bureaucracy. That's a huge task and there just aren't that many Solomani in the Rim even during the IWs to match the Vilani populations. Yes, they are faster and more expansionistic, but the ZS has been doing it longer and many of its key high pop planets have been theirs for a long, long time. That's not just going to wash away the social rebuilding the Vilani put in place on those planets long, long ago.

One interesting view that some have is that the notion of freedom is the predominate human value and that freer political systems were somehow more beneficial (despite also being capitalist and profit driven). If you didn't grow up with that, or if you saw the dark sides of it (corruption, crony capitalism, etc), or if you remember times that were more stable and less stressful, you might well not see it that way.

Look at all the elder East Germans wanting the East German government back. They got freedom, but that freedom was not something they could gain from (for a variety of reasons). They wanted back the safe streets, the no fears of not being able to afford to survive or the social context with its social values that the fall of the Berlin Wall seemed to take with it.

Look at how Russia, after the Soviet state fell, looked like it was flirting with the notion of a real democracy.... but several things killed that - the people who used to be in charge still had a lot of power and contacts on a pragmatic level, democracy was not something they 'got' at a deep level like they got 'security and safety from a strong leader' and they got a diminished sense of self because all the former client states were doing various things instead of being a strategic buffer for them, their economy was destroyed, and their criminal elements were allowed to grow in power and operate more effectively. They somewhat voluntarily reverted to what they knew: A strong leader who would rebuild their empire, keep their economy going along, who was putting the boots to the mafia, etc (now that's not true, but like Trump, Putin was a good salesman and unlike the US President, Mr. Putin controls something like 90%+ of TV and radio stations which he took control of to manage the narrative). Some people hunger for the new, the freer option... but many want to be safe, to have a non-inflating economy (compared to the runaway inflation of the days after the fall of the wall) and they want someone who is going to MRGA (Make Russia Great Again).

This is the kind of cultural challenge I see. Remarkably, to many Americans, you dangle the promise of a free market and free governments that will tend to be far more volatile and short lived... many in the world just choose the safer, stabler approach. Most of Russia (spacewise), for instance, is still agrarian (as is China)... those areas and the populations there get a very limited view of the outside world and are firmly rooted in the traditional values. Even if some political entity was to try to sell them a new way, they wouldn't be ready for it and it would introduce a chaos they aren't used to living with.

So, that's the view I take of it:

- Not enough Solomani to actually replace anything but the very highest levels of Vilani rule

- Vilani high pop worlds in the un-invaded sections of the Vilani empire would feel little difference in the short run and the long run would be hundreds of years... and the Vilani, in their turn, impact how the Terrans would do business or government because it is a practical necessity over those years

- Culturally, many of the long held regions are functionally and likely effectively assimilated (not 100% of all peoples, but most of the rabble rousers were taken out and a lot of good cultural approaches the Vilani had succeeded with would show a steady, stable, predictable state of affairs with focus on efficiency and hard work by all (nobles not being foppish layabouts). That kind of thing sells to a lot of people.

- Individually Vilani LIVE longer than Terrans. That's got some significant advantages in experience and in built connections within the political sphere.

- Many VIlani administrators or nobles have likely been on the job for three to five times as long as the span of political life permits in Terran areas (all that freedom and so on) and that brings with it all sorts of wisdom and expertise and knowing where every last body is buried (Imagine Terrans trying to transform Vilani bureaucracies... think of Yes Minister and cast Sir Humphrey as a Vilani)

You can beat an empire or part of one, you can claim that land to join to yours, but that land will bear the marks of whoever held it for a long time beforehand and this will continue for possibly centuries or on into the future do varying degrees.

I see the view Phil has outlined and I think it could, with certain understandings and ideas of how things might unfold, may be a viable one. I think mine is equally viable given a different set of understandings and ideas of how it matches to some parts of our history. I'm not worried about who is right - we've both got different views and that's great (diversity!).

I started all this by making a joking reference to Vilani as being rather conservative and bureaucratic... and it has turned into an interesting dialogue on views of the Ziru Sirka and what degree the Vilani were actually impacted by the Terrans beyond the top levels of government. I've enjoyed seeing views that differ from mine own.

TomB

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:48 PM Phil Pugliese - philpugliese at yahoo.com (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> wrote:

Of course, but I'm speaking to the period AFTER the ZS 'surrendered'.

As the 2I spread the info concerning a 'New Way' it would only be natural that many folks, non-solomani folks, would want to jump on the winner's bandwagon.

That's why I can't see that there's very much of, except in a few cases, a star-spanning traditional vilani social structure still around by 1100 3I.

It's just too inefficient to compete & has been for the thousands of years since they contacted the terrans.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Friday, September 11, 2020, 07:37:33 PM MST, Thomas RUX <xxxxxx@comcast.net> wrote:

Hello Phil,

The Vilani IIRC had a couple of thousand of years to build their infrastructure which they transported to the stars. Each culture they met either adopted the Vilani way or they died. Things began to fall apart because of the Vilani Way being stagnate which led to the subjugated worlds being able to overthrow them and then on the Vargr began to take over. On the other side they ran into the Terrans which helped accelerate the collapse. The Terrans then took over but where not able to stop the collapse.

Tom Rux

On 09/11/2020 5:43 PM Phil Pugliese - philpugliese at yahoo.com (via tml list) <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> wrote:

The 'rub' really is that it is so very unlikely that everyone will be happy with their lot, no matter what the official 'party line' states.

Now, maybe on Vland itself & similar worlds where you have to be so very careful what you eat, but those are somewhat rare aren't they.

Once they get word of the 'Solomani Way' where you do NOT have to wait for years & years to get something that only takes months for the Solomani, things start changing fast.

As you state below, once they discovered how easy it was almost everywhere else they faced a dilemma,

The 'old ways' really didn't need to be followed anymore.

Solution? Crack down & create a gigantic bureaucracy dedicated to preserving a system that had become obsolescent & eventually become obsolete once the Sols were encountered.

(Actually, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Vargrs would've eventually overrun them even w/o the IW's)

Once folks realized that they didn't have to follow the old 'snail's pace' way of life & that there was a new way that delivered everything a lot faster & more efficiently (way less overhead, amongst other things) you's have a lot of Solomani-wannabe's cropping up all over.

I mean, c'mon. the ZS kept kicking it's ass kicked around by a little upstart!

Yeah, that's something brag about!

Yeah, that's sure to give anyone a superiority complex.

Any vilani that tried to pull that 'acting superior' routine around any PC (or NPC) that I was running would definitely get some big-time pushback!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Friday, September 11, 2020, 03:27:43 PM MST, xxxxxx@quibell.org.uk <xxxxxx@quibell.org.uk> wrote:

See that’s the rub. There are no “bottom-dwellers” on Vland. Everyone contributes to society. You have to have a job, and that job has to contribute to society. The tribe is not going to go to all the effort to produce edible food for you if you don’t contribute. Who is going to give the food from their child’s mouth to feed someone who drains resources without a very very good reason (sitting on your arse doing nothing isn’t a very very good reason). Everyone has their place, every job is essential, all contribute to society. Society is everything.

President walks up to a cleaner in NASA and asks “What do you do” cleaner reply’s “I’m helping put a man on the moon”.

In fact a person who specialises in cleaning on Vland is incredibly important, because if you get the wrong bits of Vland in your mouth … that will kill you.

No the Vilani got off Vland and then realised there were resources just for the taking.

And then they got out of the Vland system and realised that there was food you could eat that didn’t kill you and that you could Terraform planets much more easily than Vland itself (something that they had perfected for thousands of years on Vland itself (they Terraformed parts of Vland everyday just to stay alive)) to be able to produce food in excess, and sometimes you found a planet you could just pull fruit off the vegetation itself and eat it, or eat the vegetation itself, and they even found you could eat the animals.

And then they created the largest empire chartered space has ever seen …

From: xxxxxx@simplelists.com <xxxxxx@simplelists.com>
Sent: 11 September 2020 08:55
To: xxxxxx@simplelists.com
Subject: Re: [TML] HIWG CD Notes

And then the Solomani came along & a lot of the 'bottom-dwellers' in the vilani hierarchy discovered that there was another option & it wouldn't kill you.

And that changed everything.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thursday, September 10, 2020, 05:24:57 PM MST, xxxxxx@quibell.org.uk <xxxxxx@quibell.org.uk> wrote:

I should really do that article I’ve been meaning to write on the Vilani and why they are the way they are.

It comes back to experiments on Vland kill whole tribes if they go wrong … so you don’t do them. It’s like conducting human drug tries but over decades because you need to know all the side effects before you let it loose on the population. Get it wrong and everyone dies. So innovation is very conservative and really slow and takes lots of effort and resources that could be used for other things. All that time, resources and effort is rewarded in the patent systems. Because it’s of benefit to the community, and the Vilani are all about community (not like us (in any way shape or form)) the tribe is everything, (individualism doesn’t work on Vland; if you strike out on your own you die), everyone can use it without restriction, however because Eneri spent all that time and effort in making sure you won’t die from the innovation he gets his royalties. Now if Eneri based his innovation on someone else’s innovation Eneri has to honour all the time, resources and effort that went into the first innovation, so he pays his royalties, and because you do this to increase the amount of stuff available to the tribe or make the tribe more efficient or allow them to do more in the same time paying the royalty is not removing any increased gain, thus the community benefits.

Anyway as I said I should really write the article.

From: xxxxxx@simplelists.com <xxxxxx@simplelists.com> On Behalf Of xxxxxx@gmail.com
Sent: 09 September 2020 17:23
To: The Traveller Mailing List <xxxxxx@simplelists.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] HIWG CD Notes

I have a friend who is a patent agent and he'd tell you that could have merits, but the administration of that could be very bureaucratic over the course of hundreds of years. That does kind of sound Vilani though...

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 10:09 AM Jeff Zeitlin <xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com> wrote:

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 09:19:02 -0400, xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

>ObTrav: Would not surprise me if the Vilani, being traditionalists and
>heavily into regulation and structure, would have similar issues with the
>large corporations being in bed with the government. It would be more
>likely given nobility as a system of governance because getting in there is
>largely knowing the right people and all the rich folks and the nobles
>(which are often rich too) would be making many credits from their
>corporate investments and holdings and so they'd encourage the laws and
>regulations to bend in ways that maximized that profit. You don't kick your
>Count out every four years if you don't like him. The rulership of the 3I
>really is the classic example of the one-percenters.

I believe there's canon (or at least Generally Accepted Wisdom) on the
Vilani patent system that states that if you have a Vilani patent, you
can't stop your invention from being used, but you do collect a royalty on
any use of it. If your invention builds on someone else's, you pay them a
royalty, and any royalties you earn on your invention are also subject to
the royalty on the invention you build on.

For example, Eneri invents the transistor, and earns 1% royalty. You invent
the transistor-based digital computer, and earn 1% royalty. You have to pay
Eneri 1% of whatever you earn in royalties on the computer because you used
the transistor in creating it. If Sharik builds on the computer, but her
invention doesn't directly use the transistor separately, she pays you your
1%, but doesn't pay Eneri; you're the one that needs to pay Eneri.

Whether there is a similar system for copyright has not been defined.

®Traveller is a registered trademark of
Far Future Enterprises, 1977-2020. Use of
the trademark in this notice and in the
referenced materials is not intended to
infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller
The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource
xxxxxx@freelancetraveller.com
http://www.freelancetraveller.com

Freelance Traveller extends its thanks to the following
enterprises for hosting services:

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