On 08/09/2020 7:50 PM xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

The GTU is unquestionably an OTU. However, it is not compatible in some sense with other game-era-driven views of what the OTU 'really is'.

GT did fill in a lot of detail in a variety of areas about how some parts of the GTU worked. Not certain those are backwards (sideways?) portable to the any era of other Traveller (nor am I sure that they are not). To me, tech differences are of some interest (they can have implications) but the real conundrums are varying understandings of the structures of empire, of the relationships between the Imperium and its member states/worlds/systems, of what Imperial law covers or does not, of what Imperial agencies do or do not, and of how Nobles work, etc.

For many, even the term OTU is a bit problematic because some of us came to Traveller before Imperial Fringe and before a more fulsome explanation of the 3I that has evolved in every subsequent generation. And others have joined in each successive generation. So even using the descriptor OTU is an issue - there's pre Imperial OTU (or absence of same), there's early OTU (CT), there's early Rebellion OTU, there's Virus OTU, there's Star Vikings/RCES OTU, there's GT (divergent GTU), there's T20's OTU, there's T4's OTU, there's 1248's OTU, and now there's T5's OTU. All are OTUs... but none are quite the same as the other and some are contradictory or at least take very divergent approaches to the OTU. We tend to hew to the version of the OTU that brought us the initial magic (or to the absence of any OTU).

My point isn't that GTU isn't an OTU (it clearly is) nor that what Thomas quoted is inaccurate or not OTU... more a question of whether some of that data from the GTU fits with other Trav versions' OTUs... and how limiting is it to the view of supporting a System Guard via some form of taxation on intersystem (at least) activity. In the GTU, it does seem to clearly preclude a range of revenue streams (no adding costs to trade except for the Imperium who are free to drink from the trough of trade taxation).

I also realize any given GM can do it their way. I'm thinking more of what would work, how it could work, why it would work that way and what limits certain canonical writings might pose. That and if one wanted to do some documentation for an article or product, being in line with canon has some value and/or necessity.

TomB

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 10:22 PM Thomas RUX < xxxxxx@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi all,

On 08/09/2020 5:42 PM xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks, Tom!

I hadn't heard any of that (outside of GT... I may have browsed Starports a while back). Depending on how divergent we believe G:T to be from (whatever other flavour we might care to focus on) that could be anywhere from 'that works' to 'deny!'. 

MgT 1e also has rules for Starports.

As far as I am concerned GT is really do different than MgT since neither has the MT rebellion or the picking up the pieces of TNE. TNE lost the reactionless thrust yet kept the Jump Drive. MgT on the other hand allows jump drives capable more than a 6 parsec jump which divergences from CT, MT, TNE, and T4.

Tom Rux

I find it unlikely that any system that entered the Imperium after having populations on multiple worlds would choose to give up any import or export duties, tarrifs, taxes, etc. Those are used for political purposes and I could easily see worlds wanting to retain that control. (Being conquered is another matter, but that already breeds resentment)

I also don't know how you can really prevent a world (short of being willing to embargo or rain fire down upon it) from charging import or export charges. 

Also, I don't think there's any guarantee that consignments move to or from the single mainworld starport that is run by the SPA (assuming all mainworld main starports are, which seems unlikely given how balkanized the REST of the TU is). What stops shippers going to or from other spaceports that can handle traffic, other stations, etc? 

Now, one would expect you'd go to the Imperial one if tarrifs were lesser. But...

Does the Imperium allow worlds to decide what they will and will not accept on their world from Imperial territory? I believe so. 

If so, can a world allow trade traffic through its non-SPA spaceports while not accepting any imports nor allowing exports via the SPA mainworld port? Maybe. 

Or does every spaceport have to be run by the SPA? 

Or does every spaceport or ground landing facility (even as mundane as a flat bit of ground) need an SPA inspector? 

How does this work if you are on a balkanized world and you have multiple ports that each claim mutually independent status? If the Imperium does not want to muck in local politics (ha ha, like that's true....), deciding who gets the single mainworld SPA-run Imperial port is an interesting choice. 

And if a planet or nation on a planet is doing a whole lot of work to drive more trade to other planets, don't they have a strong argument to levy some taxes to help pay for the infrastructure planetside or the costs of promotion? This would really seem to be a form of restraint of trade to an extent (as can taxes, but modest taxes that generate larger returns actually can be a net benefit). 

Of course, the Imperium in GT seems much more 'together' and 'complete' in terms of how it goes about things and how it runs than some other looks at it from other versions of the game, so that may contribute. 

I'm pretty sure we've also seen cannonical ports in other publications that were mainworld ports that are not run by the Imperial SPA. I could be wrong, but I think so. (Can't put a finger to where and may have been from non-canon sources)

I get that the Imperium would need the ports to be extraterritorial and that they want a uniform experience and legal status for their extrality areas (I suspect they'd frequently include consular facilities, embassies, recruiting offices, Imperial intelligence (unofficially), etc.). I get that the Imperium wants unimpeded trade off of which they take a %. (Which is funny because they don't want anyone else to collect a percentage... goose... gander?). 

Can a system (especially a system with a distributed polity in it which thus is a single entity) not arrange to control or regulate the space between its parts? That could be strictly *internal* trade to a single polity. Where does the Imperium apply? 

Even within system trade between various polities and corporate enclaves, where does the Imperium apply? 

I get that they (Imperium) probably want to have their hand in all interstellar trade, but in-system trade? Less clear to me.

Now, for SAR, you aren't dealing with trade. So can you charge fees in a system to support that service? Can you, in your system as a system government, require everyone have SAR insurance to operate in your jurisdiction?

Can you control traffic and inter-world (in-system) movement of goods and persons for security reasons? 

I don't know, but I think there's a fairly big can of worms here. 

That all said, there's surely an argument for a System Guard as a replacement for a Navy in many places (due to ideologies, fiscal realities, or just plain utility). 

There could also be private SAR operators in some places. The problem with that is, if they have to not spread the cost over an insurance-style service or pay for it by a general tax levy, any single call charge would be orders of magnitude more costly to pay for all the unfunded downtime and equipment - purchase, service, maintenance, qualification, etc. 

Thanks for the links to the Scout SAR campaign notes. 

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 4:25 PM Thomas Jones-Low < xxxxxx@gmail.com> wrote:

        I've just been spending a fair amount of time reading through GT:Starports in
pursuit of updating the wiki articles on starports (and connected articles).

        Also, there was/is an ongoing campaign with the Imperial Scout Rescue service,
which may provide ideas and background.
1) http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=40189
2) http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=40406
3) http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=41149

        Based upon my reading of GT:Starports, the Imperium generally, and the Starport
Authority specifically, is tasked only with running the port. Which pushes the
idea of a system coast guard service onto the system government itself. Services
are paid for by local taxes as the system government has no ability to raise
money from the ships conducting trade by Imperial decree.

        Officially.

        What is more likely is the local SPA director has several of your really neat
designs available to perform specific SAR operations, and do some level of
customs work.

        The Imperium allows worlds to build a local naval force. But given the Imperial
Navy outclasses almost anything a local system could build and maintain, and
most worlds are far enough from the border that the Imperial Navy should protect
them, raising a system guard naval force may sound like a really good idea.
Especially if there are colonies or stations on other worlds in the same system.

        The SPA can't charge post-fact charges for services rendered, but the world
government could.

On 8/9/2020 3:50 PM, xxxxxx@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The discussion of the Coast Guards in various places and particularly of the
> USCG has led me to wonder what typical system wide rescue and system LE/security
> might look like.
>
> I would assume that such a thing might start to exist once you'd been spacing
> for a while and could get out to the various planets and belts and so on with
> some ease enough to see some populations out there regularly and on a
> sustainable basis.
>
> So such an entity might start to be relevant around TL-9, but TL-10 would likely
> be where it started to be more robust and be justified in the economy and in
> security terms.
>
> SG-SR would have several broad mandates:
>
>   * Law enforcement of system-wide laws. In Imperial space, they could be in
>     addition to Imperial enforcement, work in conjunction with Imperial
>     enforcement, or they could even largely shoulder the burden to allow
>     Imperial assets (other than some inspectors/monitors) to be allocated
>     elsewhere. Local naval elements could assist SG-SR, be an parallel structure
>     in terms of this mandate, or direct SG-SR depending on agencies and their
>     heirarchies. In some particularly peaceful regions, some planets may not
>     even retain a system navy but instead have an SG-SR. There would be
>     integration/cooperation generally with local and Imperial law enforcement
>     around ports-of-entry, stations, and such like.
>
>   * Providing security within the system - investigating crimes beyond the
>     mainworlds, pursuing and/or deterring piracy or barratry, securing stations,
>     high ports, and other sensitive system or Imperial assets (details would
>     vary depending on relationship of planet and Imperial government likely via
>     the charter that brought the planet into the Imperium). This also would
>     include security inspections of vessels, checks on the bona fides and
>     qualifications of ships and their crews, enforcement of safety and traffic
>     laws at times, and setting up temporary or permanent exclusion zones (to
>     avoid a danger for one reason, others exist) and for deploying aides to
>     navigation as necessary and maintaining them.
>
>   * Conducting Intelligence work that falls within the mandate of protecting
>     ports, shipping, and so on related to system travel and commerce.
>
>   * Search and rescue everywhere but on mainworlds - space search and rescue,
>     search and rescue on moons, small colonies, space habitats/stations, etc.
>     throughout the system.
>
>   * In times of conflict, SG-SR vessels and personnel could be seconded to
>     either the system navy or the Imperial Navy.
>
>   * May be seconded to assist in system-related science (schlepping boffins and
>     gear around, helping get the boffins near stellar or planetary environments
>     without losing them, etc). This could include some periodic system surveys
>     for any changes in the worlds/objects in the system and/or concerns that may
>     require warnings to be posted.
>
> What sorts of space-going assets would be involved:
>
>   * Small fast response vessels - 500 tons or less - with a J-2 capacity
>     primarily used for fast in-system deployment and evacuation of injured to
>     stations/worlds/etc. that have better and more advanced medical options, and
>     with a thrust of 3gs or more (once wounded are embarked, no more than 0.75
>     or so perceivable gravities would be applied). Likely bearing a turret or
>     two to deter some threats, but mostly focused on medical response. High
>     quality sensors and computers would be used to do fast, accurate searches.
>     There would be one or more modular cutters with casualty evacuation
>     configurations available. Would have a loaded rack of dropable traffic
>     beacons and/or sensor platforms to increase search capacity.
>
>   * Medium sized response vessels - Small hospital ship - a J-2 capacity vessel
>     with thrust of at J-3 (again limited with wounded embarked) and that would
>     include one or more surgical blocks (ORs, decontam, isolation, ICU and
>     standard beds, autodocs, nurses, parameds, doctors). A few turrets just for
>     basic deterrence, a situation room/fleet command capacity so good comms,
>     decent to high end sensors to help in searches and coordination of larger
>     responses. Also would have the ability to drop traffic beacons and sensor
>     platforms. Includes multiple offloading mechanisms (cutters, straight
>     docking, close-in assisted line crossings, etc). Would respond to more major
>     incidents or help to coordinate many smaller vessels for a search of a lot
>     of space/ground.
>
>   * Fast Pursuit Vessels - 500 tons or less. Thrust 6 Gees, Jump 2 for similar
>     reasons as above, full complement of weapons, high end sensors for pursuing
>     and tracking vessels and other spacial objects that are of concern related
>     to security or law enforcement concerns. Includes SG boarding parties who
>     are specialists in ship boarding and inspection for security reasons.
>     Includes at least one armed auxilliary able to deploy up to 16 boarders (two
>     teams). These vessels would be able to help in a search with their sensors
>     and could help with the security / traffic management during a large
>     disaster, but would have a primary role in going after fugitives and
>     inspecting vessels flagged as a potential threat to security.
>
>   * System Tugs - J-2 wth capacity to bring back other ships on the return leg.
>     May be over 1000 tons. May be smaller ones that can provide a real-space
>     tow. Their job is to help get damaged or hazardous vessels or objects moved
>     to safer places for rescue/repair/disposal.
>
>   * Tender - 400 to 600 tons - for deploying and maintaining (including annual
>     PMs) navigation aides, system sensor buoys, search platforms, science
>     platforms, and sometimes recovering or fixing in situ smaller SG-SR vessels
>     that have experienced serious problems that preclude them jumping of
>     thrusting to a repair destination.
>
> Funding would have a component derived from all corporations operating in or
> passing through the system (a fee charged to ships or enterprises in the system
> or passing through), some portion of mainworld and corporate businesses in the
> system (because it is a public service), and perhaps in some places, they may
> require payments after the fact for their services to help sustain operations.
>
> THoughts?
>
>
>
> --
> “The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law.” ―
> Aristotle
>
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         Thomas Jones-Low
Work:    xxxxxx@softstart.com
Home:    xxxxxx@gmail.com
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